Show Notes

In this episode of “Celebrating Justice,” trial attorney Aparna Pujar of Napoli Shkolnik shares her inspiring journey from studying law in India to becoming a trial lawyer in the United States.

Motivated by her love for performing and inspired by legal dramas and Bollywood films, Aparna had a dream of being a trial lawyer. Starting her career in commercial litigation and arbitration in India, Aparna never experienced a trial due to the slower legal process. In 2020, she moved to the U.S. and attended Columbia Law School. Despite the challenges posed by COVID-19, she landed a job with Joe Napoli’s team, a renowned personal injury trial firm. Aparna discusses the cultural and procedural differences between practicing law in India and the U.S., including her quick transition into courtroom appearances. She emphasizes the importance of empathy and approachability, traits that have helped her connect with personal injury clients more effectively.

In her “Closing Argument,” Aparna highlights the importance of courage and persistence in overcoming adversity. Despite numerous challenges, including struggling to find a job due to visa issues, her determination and family support saw her through.

1:18 – Why did you want to become a trial lawyer?
7:55 – What makes you unique?
10:37 – A case that matters.
16:20 – Aparna’s “Closing Argument”

Takeaways

Overcoming cultural and procedural differences in a new legal system requires adaptability and a willingness to embrace change.
Empathy and approachability are valuable traits for lawyers, particularly in personal injury law, where client relationships are crucial.
Initial setbacks and unexpected outcomes in trials can provide important lessons and shape future legal strategies.
Persistence and determination are essential in the face of adversity.

Transcript

Aparna Pujar: I don’t really have a very conventional American attorney’s journey, honestly, because I grew up in India and I studied law in India. I took the bar exam in 2017 and I was called to the bar first in India in 2018. I worked in India for a few years and it was pretty straightforward for me, honestly. I was doing commercial litigation and arbitration. And although I was a first-generation lawyer, it wasn’t really- It was a good life, honestly. But I never saw a trial when I was in India, even though I worked for like three years. It was because things are very similar, but yet a little different because things are a little slower there. And most of the cases, as soon as you get a summary judgment, things come to a standstill. So I never got the opportunity to see a trial. But I honestly, I used to also dance, like I’m a trained classical dancer. So I always loved the stage. I loved performing, being on the center stage. And I always thought a trial to be something like a performance, but with a genuine purpose. So I was very attracted to it always. And I used to watch these movies, Hollywood movies, Bollywood movies with all these trials. And I would always imagine myself doing the cross examinations and the opening statement, the closing statement, the oral argument. I never thought of myself to be a corporate lawyer, to be the one who’s sitting in office all day. But of course, I never saw it there. And then cut to 2020, I came to the US. I did my LLM from Columbia Law School. I graduated in 2021. During that time, my only aim was to get a job, honestly, because those were the COVID times. And coming from India and there are many visa issues, all I wanted was a job. I got lucky. I started working with Joe Napoli’s team and Mr. Joseph Napoli is like a very renowned personal injury trial lawyer. So I was put in his team and he loved doing trials and he would always encourage all the attorneys to do trials. So that my dream, my childhood dream of being a trial lawyer was honestly awakened once I started with this firm. That’s my journey of becoming a trial lawyer.

Chad Sands: If you could take me back though, you’re in India and you’re watching, were you really inspired by these characters on the movie screen and these legal films? Like what movie, what American movies did you see and what Bollywood films starred, you know, these trial lawyers who kind of caught your attention and the dream of being in a courtroom?

Aparna Pujar: More than movies, I’ll tell you about Boston Legal. I was really inspired by the show Boston Legal.

Chad Sands: The William Shatner show?

Aparna Pujar: Yes, I loved it. I loved all the opening statements and closing statements and I would think about it and I would look at them with so much confidence. I really like Boston Legal. I used to watch Suits too, but honestly, like once I started watching Boston Legal, I thought I’m more of, I was more inclined towards that. And I watched many movies, like I watched Erin Brokovic and all, Legally Blonde, all sorts of movies with lawyers. And when it came to Bollywood movies, there were many. Like there’s this one movie called Damini, which is like really famous and it has a very famous trial scene in which the judge gives an order for an adjournment. The trial is going on, it’s a rape case and it’s very intense. The lead actor, Sunny Deol, he says, “Petarik petarik.” It basically means that you keep giving dates and dates and dates, adjournment, adjournment, adjournment. When will we come to the meat of the matter? Basically that. That’s a very inspiring movie. So you know when you see all these movies, you see all these characters, you want to be a part of it. Especially you are having so much of an impact on people’s lives. All these cases dealt with, you know, individuals. And I thought that was very, that really motivated me, honestly. I remember growing up and watching a lot of legal movies and I even wanted to be an attorney watching those. Very inspiring.

Chad Sands: Tell me a little bit though about you’re an attorney, you passed the bar in India. Did you always want to come to the States? Was that like a goal of yours to practice law in the States or were you, as you mentioned, you were practicing in India, but you weren’t really getting that opportunity to step on the stage, so to speak.

Aparna Pujar: It wasn’t my dream to come to the US, honestly. I first came to the US in 2017 after I graduated law school back in India as a tourist. I came with my parents. My brother lives here. We came to visit. And I went around, I saw colleges and my brother really motivated me. He was like, you should come study here because he studied here. He’s an engineer. So he studied here and he had started working with IBM at that time. So he took us around New York. He and my sister-in-law, both of them worked in New York City. So I really liked it, but I never- I went back to India, I never really thought about it. But of course there comes a time, right, in my family, like my brother had done masters and so it was like, okay, I should do a masters too. I had worked for three years. So that’s about it. So I thought I’ll do an LLM and that was my plan. I’ll come to the US for my LLM. Once I came here, I really liked it. The professors were great. I really liked my life. Although it was COVID times, honestly, I mean, but I still really liked the life here. So I decided that I should stay back. Additionally, I had a student loan, so it made a lot of sense that I make in dollars. But yeah, but I really liked it here. And once I started working here, I got like a lot of opportunities, at least like once I passed the bar, and then I was admitted. I think within the first month, I made at least like dozens of court appearances. And honestly, in India, at least in Bombay, where I am from in Mumbai, they have the solicitor and barrister kind of a system. So you might be working with a law firm and you may not get as many opportunities to go up here for the cases yourself because there’s always a counsel. If it’s a big case, it’s a really big case. They don’t want to risk it. So they hire a senior counselor or a counsel who is an expert in those kinds of cases and they are the ones who will take the lead. So you will probably follow them around or then take notes, shadow them, that sort of deal. Of course you get your opportunity, but you need a lot of experience to get that opportunity. Here I was pushed in the ocean with the sharks. You know, honestly, that is great. I think you learn much more once you start doing it yourself. Yes, you get thrown into the deep end with no life jacket. That’s true.

Chad Sands: Well, as a trial lawyer who made their way from India to Manhattan, what makes you unique?

Aparna Pujar: So in India, I was doing commercial litigation and arbitration mostly. And then I started doing personal injury cases here. The reason I think what makes me click here more is the fact that I’m dealing with clients who are individuals directly. When I was working in commercial litigation arbitration space, I was mostly dealing with representatives of a company. And one of the best qualities I feel about me is the fact that I’m very approachable and empathetic. So that is something that goes better with personal injury cases. And that is something I feel is unique about me because usually lawyers are perceived to be somebody who is like a know-it-all, is brash, is aggressive and I am not like that at all and honestly I thought that’s going to be an issue but I’ve realized especially when you’re dealing with individuals that is a good thing if you’re not too aggressive because I feel clients can like you know pick up the phone and talk to me openly or without any hesitation. And I feel that is what is unique about me. In fact, when I started working, many people told me I was too nice. And I had to be a little more aggressive. And in the beginning, I took it to my heart. I was like, OK, maybe I am being too nice. If they’re going to like, if the clients will think I’m a pushover. But honestly, no, I think the times have changed. Now being nice is in and being rude is out. So in fact, I got a very good response from judges too because I do a lot of court appearances and the judges seem to like me too. The clients seem to like me. So I don’t think I need to be aggressive. I think being nice is a unique quality in me for a lawyer and it works.

Chad Sands: Yes, there are I think a lot of personas that are created in perceptions about lawyers and you know, whether it’s the public right or other lawyers having perceptions of other lawyers and how they should act. It’s always refreshing to hear, you know.

Aparna Pujar: Yeah like in Boston Legal, like Alan, sure He’s very aggressive and very cocky. Whenever I saw him in Boston Legal I knew I was never gonna be like that. But of course, I like his style of advocacy, but I knew I was never gonna be like that. And even if I try, it won’t be like genuine. It won’t come naturally to me. And I don’t think that works anymore.

Chad Sands: I like that style of advocacy. I like that saying. I know it’s hard to choose one. And I might actually ask you to share two or maybe one. But could you share a case maybe from India that had a significant impact on you as an attorney? And then also maybe one here in the States?

Aparna Pujar: My first trial basically, I was second seating Mr. Joe Napoli and it was in Queens County in New York. so they have a bifurcated trial. It was a premises case, there was a liabilities trial first and then the damages trial. So it was a tough case, it was a premises case, tough case. We won the liability bid. Okay, and we were really happy because it was a tough case, we were not sure and then we won liability. And the jury was completely on our side. Now, because this was during summer and the jury didn’t want to be sitting in the courtroom all day, we had to get a new set of jury, completely a new set of jury during the damages trial.

Chad Sands: Is that common?

Aparna Pujar: I don’t think so. It’s mostly the same jury that first is sitting on the liability case and then the damages. But then in our case, because most of them wanted to be out in the sun. So we had to get a new set of jury members. And they were not really convinced by the medical reports and whatever medical experts we had. Although we did have a very good case. So I think the lesson here was the fact that even though you win liability, but if you have a different set of jury members, it’s not going to work because they haven’t seen you prove liability if you just show them the medical reports and the hospital reports and the experts without any, they just know that this person is liable, the defendant is liable, but without any context, without them seeing any of the evidence, just seeing the damages evidence. Although we did get an award because the defendant was liable, but our expectation, our lowest expectation was like $500,000. We got like $50,000. And that was a big lesson that don’t take the risk of having like a completely new set of jury members. And actually one more lesson from that case. It has happened quite often now that plaintiffs get stalked, not really stalked, but the defendants will try to videotape them doing like usual activities which they may have probably said in their deposition that they can’t do. So one of our clients she said that she cannot drive a car and they caught her.

Chad Sands: They hired like a private investigator to go film around?

Aparna Pujar: Yes, they did. And she was caught on camera. Although the fact was that the deposition happened probably five years before the trial. And that’s when she said, “I cannot drive.” And then the video was taken like maybe it was around three years after her deposition. But if you show that to the jury members that, this is what she said during the deposition and here is the video, her driving the car, it’s not nice. It’s not good. So that’s another lesson that always warn your clients. Although we do warn, but you know, they also want to live their life, you know. But now we started telling them that there will always be an investigator in your backyard and stop with all the social media.

Chad Sands: No more social media as evidence. Very touchy. Yeah.

Aparna Pujar: And about the Indian case. So this was one of the first few arbitrations I was doing. And I had a very good boss there, the partner I was working with, Sanaya Dada Chunji. And she handed over to me this arbitration, which dealt with fraud. There was database manipulation in that case. Basically it was a software company which was handling software for a bank, and then that bank’s database was messed with by a few individuals. In fact, one individual who was an employee of the software company of our client. So it was a crazy arbitration. And our whole case was that he didn’t do it in the course of employment. He did it at his own free will while he was at home. So what he did was he manipulated the database. He used SQL plus. I don’t remember very well. It had a lot of IT terms and he manipulated the database to look like there was no change in the numbers, but he had like withdrawn a lot of money. So that was very interesting and it was much more interesting because that was one of the first cases that the partner I was working with completely handed it over to me. And I learned a lot.

Chad Sands: I mean, that sounds like a Bollywood movie in itself right there.

Aparna Pujar: I know.

Chad Sands: So the guy who works for the software company works for the bank, basically set up like a ghost machine? So everybody in the bank thought the numbers were all right. But then at night he was working at a totally different out of the real database and withdrawing money, but that it wouldn’t show to anyone else in the bank?

Aparna Pujar: Right. Yeah. Because they were handling, this company was handling the payment systems in the bank. This guy, he was supposed to be a supervisor, in fact. He was not even like the regular employee. He was a supervisor of the employees.

Narrator: At CloudLex, we understand the challenges personal injury law firms face every day. That’s why we’ve built the Legal Cloud Platform to help you stay productive and keep your cases moving forward. CloudLex provides a comprehensive suite of applications and features to support every stage of intake, pre-litigation, trial, and more. From innovative case management to insightful analytics and HIPAA secure client communication, CloudLex empowers your firm with the technology to thrive. Build your firm of the future and see for yourself at www.cloudlex.com.

Now here is this episode’s “Closing Argument.”

Aparna Pujar: There was a time when I was struggling to find a job because although I had passed the bar exam on my very first attempt and had a Columbia degree, without any H1B work visa, it was very difficult for me to find a job. But I had to find a job by hook or crook because of the student loan. Many people did tell me I should just pack my bags and go home, but I persisted thanks to the support of my family and my loved ones. So a few key lessons and the verdict from my experience is that you need to have courage to embrace change and be persistent even in adversity. If I could write a book on my life, I would call it Courage Across Continents or The Girl Who Tried and Made It.